mountedpentiumsfryingcircuits:
oo i actually have a MAJOR soft spot for ida bc it was the first show i ever did and i was understudy hilarion and i honestly think it’s a very interesting show, provided that you aren’t either king gama or the chorus of men. (i was the chorus of men. urgh.)
the chorus of men i like to think are so dull as penance for how shite hms pinafore is for the women, because the chorus of women are hardly on and there are three female principals, one of whom has about five lines and is just generally an insult to mezzos everywhere. but seriously. if you’re in the chorus of men even though you’re hardly on stage at all the choruses are still good.
the ladies chorus is really good though! i like the fact that you can make each of the ladies in acts ii and iii as a distinct character if you want to (which i do! i think it’s a great idea).
as far as characters i think it’s…often VERY under-explored and it’s usually presented in a transmisogynistic way as far as “i am a maiden” is concerned, where you could just play it as the three boys genuinely enjoying putting on dresses and dancing around (which i think is much nicer and thousands of times sweeter. just…let them have some fun). also there’s the question of whether ida is a transphobe or not (around the line “i know not mercy, men in women’s clothes”).
as a trans person myself i have…a lot to say about this but basically: there is nothing intrinsically transphobic about princess ida and honestly there is a line – “like most sons are we: masculine in sex” – which validates the existence of transgender men. i know arac’s one (1) line of dialogue is rather transphobic (sort of? i don’t know if it’s really transphobic), he’s not meant to be a nice guy.
basically, i think it works best in a modern setting, so that you can really bring out all of these subtleties and intricacies, without getting bogged down with period detail and where, exactly, it’s set. also, the music is really, really good. before my voice broke would you know the kind of maid was a regular piece of my repertoire but i’m a baritone now, and there’s no good solo for me now :v
Yes! All of this! It’s such an interesting show with so many layers and, refreshingly, a great one to be in if you’re a woman (side note: thank you for recognising the evil that is Pinafore. i like it but am unhappy about this because if i were ever in it i would have such a bad time) – either in the female chorus or one of the principal roles (honestly, what is more iconic than “Yet I will die, yet I will die before I call myself his wife *top Bb for four bars*”).
However, this is the key thing about Ida, and the discourse around whether or not it is outdated and misogynistic. It is an opera about extremism and compromise, and a critical look at gender relations and marriage. But, crucially, the men are just as extreme as the women. If Hilarion’s world, Act 1, is portrayed as the “normality” that he is trying to bring Ida back to, and that she eventually succumbs to, then of course it seems that way. But the similarities between the two groups’ worldview and attitude towards the opposite sex is what should be highlighted.
(Oh god I have too many ideas I can’t write them all out here)
Basically, Ida and Hilarion’s romance is beautiful – they are both people who have been sheltered from the opposite sex and view love and marriage as a battle to be won, and the opposite sex as the enemy. They fall in love outside of their preconceptions of gender and both are forced to confront and change their ideas in act 3. This is also shown by the music Sullivan reprises in the act 3 finale.
Also The World Is But A Broken Toy makes me cry and the scrunchy harmonies symbolise sexual tension
(i love this show so much and it hurts how often it’s misinterpreted)
I’ve done the show twice – first as men’s chorus, second as Scynthius – and I have to say, I love the men’s chorus in this one. They’re present a lot longer than one might think: almost all of Act I, half of Act III, and true, only the finale of Act II (but what a finale!), and the music is far superior. They’re onstage for much longer than Ruddigore. (Granted, in terms of quality, nothing beats being a ghost, but I’d definitely say I enjoyed being the chorus for this as well. Patience, on the other hand, is definitely payback for the women’s chorus in Pinafore…fortunately, I played Colonel Calverley the one time I did the show 🙂 ).
Gama, I think, would still be a lot of fun to play, regardless of the small amount of time he’s onstage. (even though there’s not much character development, and he’s usually portrayed as a simple caricature flitting between acerbic nastiness and utter despair). “Whene’er I Spoke” was my go-to (ha!) audition piece for a while.
I had intended to write less about the particular characters and more about some of the ideas mentioned above on gender, hidden depths of the show, etc, but my eyes are probably not going to remain open much longer, so I’ll simply say, re: the analysis of Ida/Hilarion’s romance, agree 1000%.
Was in the men’s chorus as well recently (same production that @mountedpentiumsfryingcircuits was Scynthius), and yes, I think time-wise it is more stagetime than Ruddigore, though being a ghost is the best! Though I’ve actually done a Ruddigore and a Patience where I changed costumes and swapped between choruses, because why the heck not? ( @shimyereh will recall that one time there was a full rainbow of bridesmaids for the first couple songs and then at the end of Act 1 Green and Yellow had disappeared and there suddenly were two Gentry whose moustaches looked suspiciously fake…)
But I digress. It’s an interesting question through a modern lens whether Ida would be a terf or trans-inclusive. It could be argued, I think, that there’s a difference between Men in Women’s Clothes and transwomen, and Ida is calling out the boys for being the former. However, I don’t think we can call anything in the play inherently trans-positive or transphobic because in Victorian society queer people had to be SUPER CLOSETED or get arrested, so it’s possible that Mr. Gilbert didn’t even know trans was a thing. Though he definitely knew about cross-casting for comic effect, which was very popular in British panto and in opera, so he may have been poking fun at that genre of comedy with “I am a Maiden”. Or even just examining gender roles and expectations. Trying to figure out when+where it’s SET is kind of a nightmare but keeping in mind the culture in which it was written is useful. This goes for discourse on whether the show is misogynistic as well. I feel like it was actually rather feminist for its time, but it’s hard to tell. While today it seems like the play criticized higher ed for women, I think since most of the more misogynist lines are uttered by Gama and Hildebrand, who are portrayed as unpleasant and not so sympathetic, so I don’t think the audience is SUPPOSED to agree with them. Like, Hildebrand is basically the villain of the piece.
Also today the marriage resolution seems like a tired “happily ever after” trope, but I agree with a lot of what rapturerapture said. Particularly because Hilarion states that Ida can still return to Adamant if she chooses. Lady Psyche, too, vows to return if the boys don’t behave.
I would also like to mention the side plot of Lady Blanche. She’s a single mother who is intelligent, ambitious, and sings in one of only 2 F/F duets in the Savoy Canon and I think is very under appreciated and needs to be talked about more.
That said, modern audiences are not experts on Victorian theatrical tropes or even the rest of Gilbert’s work. And I think it’s important for modern directors to respect modern feminist sensibility and not make it awful. Which the last production I was in was FANTASTICALLY well-handled, we actually even had a fundraiser for the Malala Fund which helps girls have access to education around the world- supporting Ida’s vision. But I could definitely see how a director could do very badly too.
Also I love how we all have SO MANY THOUGHTS. Good job everyone.
thoughts on Princess Ida? (spoiler alert: I have many and it is a Controversial G&S so I would be really interested to hear what you think)
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